just thinking
02.17.05 (4:49 pm) [edit]
A little note...this is my first blog ever. I'm entering an unknown domain...
A little note...The first week in January I moved into a new apartment with my friend. Because she was extremely busy, and I was attempting to study for the LSATs we never connected our TV until last week. It's amazing what a difference life is without TV. Being an avid reader, I was able to finish 10 books, study and hear myself think more. I never realized the amount of television I watched just to drown my own inner voice out. Avoidance was the main contribution TV offered my life. Furthermore, when reading I was no longer struck dumb. My brain did not automatically turn off as it does when I watch TV.
Moving to another topic... being the person that I am I'm always questioning and wondering about life's important questions, i.e., what is truth, what are we doing here? etc... That always gets me wondering about society as we are today. Recently my brother told me reading as gone down in this country by 10% over the last 20 years. What does this say about our society? Furthermore, the simple fact that we value people's abilities to pretend to be something else or people's abilities to play games over the abilities of a person who teaches or guides our children, I think says a lot about our society today. It's a simple fact; our society is based on economics, the big dollar. What would happen if our society was based on humanity? Would we be caught up in the never ending loop to get ahead at our jobs, to financial better ourselves? Would we be constantly coveting fame and fortune? What would our world look like and what difference in value structures would exist? Hmm, I'll have to do more thinking on that.
Another thing I've been struggling with is the fact that many of my friends, who are good people, have different political views and value structures. And quite frankly I don't understand their views. This is not for a lack of trying to understand. I just don't get republicans and the value structure they support (I'm a liberal and proud).
For example, the topic of abortion is a favorite of mine. I've had countless discussions on the topic trying to discern why people are so against, not abortion itself mind, you but people's right to choose. One discussion sticks out in my mind... my friends view is based entirely upon religion, he's a Christian obviously. Ok, so I respect that and he made the point, the debate among many is whether a fetus is a person or not, what is conception? If we look at it that way, wouldn't it be better to error on the side of caution and safety? And quite frankly at the time I had no answer. Why not error on the side of safety?
However, after mulling the problem in my head, which has helped to understand my confusion on other topics as well, the difference between his belief and my belief is the difference in value we place on certain aspects of life. He places a very high value on his religion and the bible. Being raised without religious influence whatsoever and still struggling through my spirituality and what I believe in or not, I value a person’s right to make the choice for themselves. This brings me back to what little knowledge I have of Christianity, but didn't God give humans the right to choose? Does it say anywhere in the bible that Christians should inflict their beliefs on others? I'm not necessarily for abortion for myself; however, I know I'm not capable of making that decision for another person, having never faced the possibility of facing that kind of decision. Also, I've always believed the decision should be made between that individual and thier "maker" whoever that might be.
I'm not saying my way is right, but it's interesting how we develop and learn our value system and that is my epiphany for the day.
posted by: simeon (reply)
post date: 02.18.05 (3:43 am)
Hi there Taralynn. I'm glad you like the topic of abortion, as I do. I read your post and I'd like to give my Pro-life perspective on the right to choose. It is not biblically based and does not require religion. My view is based on a simple moral equation with 3 points.
1. It is morally wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being.
2. Abortion intentionally kills a human being.
3. Therefore abortion is wrong.
Lol, I told you it was simple. Now, from you're point of view please tell my what you think is wrong with my moral logic and we can go from there.
posted by: taralynn (reply)
post date: 02.18.05 (3:52 pm)
Ok, so I can respect your thinking however, nothing is that simple or in black in white. Take the idea of taking a person's life...this is not a black and white issue. Is it morally acceptable to take someone's life in self defense? Is it morally acceptable to take someone's life when they are suffering extreme pain? Further I ask, is it morally correct to force women to have children they neither want nor can provide for (I'm not saying this is mature or right, but there are women who are out there that do not take the proper precautions, that's just a fact too) the child, and have them be responsible for the child. Won't the child suffer in the long wrong? Is it more humane to bring a child into this world to starve or not? Of course, people bring up the possibility of adoption. However, there are more kids in this world starving and in need than there are people willing to adopt. Plus, if you want to force your morals on other people, I would ask how many children have you adopted or taken responsibility for that are not our own. Until society takes responsibility for children as a whole, children will always suffer and why should we complicate the problem. But enough of that…
Another thing, most pro-lifers are for the death penalty. Explain that hypocrisy to me.
And last, you're still forcing your beliefs upon those of others is your anti-abortion. Which means you value YOUR rights and morals above all others rights and morals.
Furthermore, the desire to bring a topic to its lowest common denominator sells short the complexity of the issue at hand. I am not debating whether abortion is moral or not, I'm more concerned with whether or not people have the right to inflict their beliefs and morals on others. This is the issue at hand for me.
posted by: simeon (reply)
post date: 02.20.05 (7:41 am)
Reply to: taralynn
Thanks for your points, taralynn. I will respond to your points by restating them in quotes and then placing my responses below.
“Further I ask, is it morally correct to force women to have children they neither want nor can provide for (I'm not saying this is mature or right, but there are women who are out there that do not take the proper precautions, that's just a fact too) the child, and have them be responsible for the child. Won't the child suffer in the long wrong? Is it more humane to bring a child into this world to starve or not? Of course, people bring up the possibility of adoption. However, there are more kids in this world starving and in need than there are people willing to adopt. Plus, if you want to force your morals on other people, I would ask how many children have you adopted or taken responsibility for that are not our own. Until society takes responsibility for children as a whole, children will always suffer and why should we complicate the problem”
This argument you brought up is a widely used one for pro choicers. Unfortunately, it is a rabbit trail off of the real issue. Your points ASSUME that the unborn baby is not a human being that should be entitled to the same rights you and I do. Is a mother allowed to kill her 3 year old daughter if she can’t afford to feed her any more? Should we allow a mother to kill her 2 year old because we don’t want to “force” her to care for that child? The answer to both of this questions is NO. So the REAL question is WHAT IS THE UNBORN? If it is a just a meaningless blob of tissue then NO JUSTIFICATION IS REQUIRED for the mother.... she ought to be able to remove it w/o any restrictions whatsoever. But if the unborn is a living human being then the mother shouldn’t be able to kill him/her any more than her 3-year old toddler.
“Another thing, most pro-lifers are for the death penalty. Explain that hypocrisy to me.”
This statement is a personal attack against prolifers who are for the death penalty. If you want to discuss this lets do it on another blog b/c it has no impact on whether or not the unborn should have rights.
“And last, you're still forcing your beliefs upon those of others is your anti-abortion. Which means you value YOUR rights and morals above all others rights and morals. “
Again, this argument is a rabbit trail. Am I also “forcing my beliefs” by telling a mother she can’t kill her 3-yr old child? Well, I guess I am, and so would you if a woman was about to kill her 3-yr old. You would agree with me that it is immoral to kill a 3-yr old and I’m quite sure you wouldn’t hesitate to speak up if a friend of yours had a knife to her daughters neck. Can you deny this? Well I guess we’re both guilty of speaking up and “forcing” our beliefs.
“Furthermore, the desire to bring a topic to its lowest common denominator sells short the complexity of the issue at hand. I am not debating whether abortion is moral or not, I'm more concerned with whether or not people have the right to inflict their beliefs and morals on others. This is the issue at hand for me.”
Well maybe I got the discussion wrong. This last statement you made makes me wonder if you have even really thought it thru about whether abortion is right or wrong. It sounds like you don’t really care to know the absolute truth but are more perturbed at pro-lifers trying to persuade others to save the lives of unborn babies. Am I correct?
Well, now that we got that stuff all out of the way for now I would like to address the question of “What is the Unborn”. Note that these are not my “beliefs” as you might want to put it in order to make them seem subjective. The following points are facts:
1.The unborn is alive. No period of non-life exists in the sequence of events from mating to birth. Life doesn’t BEGIN at some stage of development; the unborn is alive at EVERY stage. How do we know that?....because the unborn is growing biologically and it possesses each of the biological criteria for life (metabolism, growth, and reaction to stimuli).
2. The unborn is a separate individual being from the mother. The unborn can be of a different gender, it has a separate brain and central nervous system, a different blood type, and a unique genetic fingerprint. And the difference in genetic fingerprint BEGINS at conception, no later stage.
To sum up, all of your points supporting a woman’s right to choose assumed the unborn wasn’t a living human being, or else I can assume your ideas should also apply to a 3-year old child. We’ve seen the facts proving the unborn IS a living human being. What else is there?
posted by: simeon (reply)
post date: 02.22.05 (3:19 am)
Reply to: taralynn
While you mull over your defense of the pro-choice position in response to my points I have a separate question/concern about something else you said:
"And last, you're still forcing your beliefs upon those of others is your anti-abortion. Which means you value YOUR rights and morals above all others rights and morals."
First I would like to know what you specifically mean by this. And how do you define "forcing"? Then please point out exactly HOW I am acheiving it. Finally, I would like to ask you if my "forcing" (as you put it) morals on others is wrong and why?
Thanks again for engaging in this conversation. I hope we both learn a lot from each others points.
posted by: simeon (reply)
post date: 02.24.05 (6:37 am)
Taralynn, where did you go? I thought abortion was one of your favorite discussions?
posted by: adinaloki (reply)
post date: 02.24.05 (10:16 am)
simeon, your missing a few things.
Sometimes you have to do the wrong thing.
Yes, abortion is wrong, in my opinion there is no question over wether it is right or wrong, it is clearly wrong. As you said killing is wrong, obviously everyone agrees with that.
That doesnt mean people dont have to do it. If someone is killed in self-defense, obviously this was wrong, killing is always wrong, but at the time it was what had to be done.
Sometimes we cant do the right thing.
Id also like to disagree with something taralynn said, sometimes its not a womans fault if she gets pregnant, ok so there ARE stupid people out there who are selfish enough to risk getting themselves into a situation where they must take a life. But some people take all the precautions and are simply incredibley unlucky. I hate to describe becoming pregnant as unlucky as obviously in a way it is a wonderful gift, but if someone, like me, is in the position where they cannot keep the child, then it is the worst luck in the world that both me and the baby are in this situation.
Abortion is wrong. That doesnt mean people shouldnt have the choice to it.
posted by: adinaloki (reply)
post date: 02.24.05 (10:17 am)
Reply to: simeon
simeon, your missing a few things.
Sometimes you have to do the wrong thing.
Yes, abortion is wrong, in my opinion there is no question over wether it is right or wrong, it is clearly wrong. As you said killing is wrong, obviously everyone agrees with that.
That doesnt mean people dont have to do it. If someone is killed in self-defense, obviously this was wrong, killing is always wrong, but at the time it was what had to be done.
Sometimes we cant do the right thing.
Id also like to disagree with something taralynn said, sometimes its not a womans fault if she gets pregnant, ok so there ARE stupid people out there who are selfish enough to risk getting themselves into a situation where they must take a life. But some people take all the precautions and are simply incredibley unlucky. I hate to describe becoming pregnant as unlucky as obviously in a way it is a wonderful gift, but if someone, like me, is in the position where they cannot keep the child, then it is the worst luck in the world that both me and the baby are in this situation.
Abortion is wrong. That doesnt mean people shouldnt have the choice to it.
posted by: simeon (reply)
post date: 02.24.05 (2:08 pm)
Reply to: adinaloki
Adinaloki, thanks for you comments. I will respond to much of what you said about what I am “missing”. But I would first say that I nothing you have brought up is something new. I’ve considered your ideas before.
“Yes, abortion is wrong, in my opinion there is no question over wether it is right or wrong, it is clearly wrong. As you said killing is wrong, obviously everyone agrees with that.”
Okay, so you agree that Abortion IS wrong, clearly. Obviously because abortion intentionally kills and INNOCENT human being. I’m glad we don’t disagree there.
“That doesnt mean people dont have to do it. If someone is killed in self-defense, obviously this was wrong, killing is always wrong, but at the time it was what had to be done.”
Okay, this is where you aren’t making sense to me. Of course people don’t have to do it, but that’s not to say it should be legal. Murder is illegal yet people “don’t have to do it.” That statement is irrelevant. And your self defense example is not the same thing. In self defense the person you kill is not *innocent*. That is the key word. The attacker is guilty of attacking and you are defending yourself. In abortion the unborn is completely innocent. You cannot compare the two.
“I hate to describe becoming pregnant as unlucky as obviously in a way it is a wonderful gift, but if someone, like me, is in the position where they cannot keep the child, then it is the worst luck in the world that both me and the baby are in this situation.”
I completely realize that there are unplanned pregnancies that can create a HUGE inconvenience to the point that it seems an unbearable burden. But consider a mother who has a 2-yr old child who she can no longer afford to feed or take care of. Should the mother also have the “choice” to end her life? I’m assuming your answer is “No.” If an abortion kills an innocent human being then the same rights should be given to him or her. For you to arbitrarily give the mother rights to “choose” to kill the unborn is ridiculous, since you already realize the unborn is a living, human being.
“Abortion is wrong. That doesnt mean people shouldnt have the choice to it.”
Realize how irrational this statement is: “Murder is wrong. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t have a choice to it.”
Murder = intentionally killing an innocent human
Abortion= intentionally killing an innocent human
The math isn’t hard.
posted by: adinaloki (reply)
post date: 02.24.05 (4:21 pm)
Reply to: simeon
"...Realize how irrational this statement is: “Murder is wrong. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t have a choice to it.”
Murder = intentionally killing an innocent human
Abortion= intentionally killing an innocent human
The math isn’t hard."
I see your point but this isnt what i was saying, obviously saying abortion is wrong but we should still have the right to do it, is the same in ways to saying "murder is wrong...etc" but thats exactly it, murder IS wrong, and people CAN still do it. You can murder someone as easily as you can get an abortion, infact a lot more easily, only obviously there are then consequences, you will most definately go to jail or whatever and be punished for what you did.
Abortion IS wrong, and people CAN do it. But then you will also suffer the consequences, people may not realise how much abortion effects someone, or atleast speaking from my point of view. I would consider myself a good person, i dont do anything "wrong" at all, i have morals and obey the law. But in this circumstance, im doing something WRONG something terrible, abortion. And for the rest of my life i will live with that, i have to mourn the death of my child, i have to live with the guilt and i have lost all respect for myself as a person, i am no longer a "good person" and i dont think i can ever be forgiven.
Sorry, im not looking for sympathy or trying to justify my actions at all, my point is.. Both abortion and murder are wrong, but as people with human rights we should be able to choose wether to do the right or the wrong thing, and if we choose the wrong thing for whatever reason, we will be punished.
Im not overly good at making my points clear but i hope you understand what im getting at. Making abortion illegal in my opinion takes away a human right, although murder is illegal (and SHOULD be, i hasten just add) we still have the choice of wether to do it or not. If abortion was illegal, there is no choice, unless a woman wants to risk losing her own life aswell as the babies which is likely if she was to try some kind of illegal abortion...
Im not really in the mood right now to discuss the other points you made im tired and i cant remember what you said but im sure ill come back at another time and reply properly...
posted by: simeon (reply)
post date: 02.25.05 (12:48 pm)
Reply to: adinaloki
“You can murder someone as easily as you can get an abortion, infact a lot more easily, only obviously there are then consequences, you will most definately go to jail or whatever and be punished for what you did.”
Case in point, murder is ILLEGAL because it involves killing an innocent person, and abortion is the equivalent moral wrong so it should also be ILLEGAL. That’s the whole point. You are contradicting yourself.
“Making abortion illegal in my opinion takes away a human right, although murder is illegal (and SHOULD be, i hasten just add) we still have the choice of wether to do it or not. If abortion was illegal, there is no choice, unless a woman wants to risk losing her own life aswell as the babies which is likely if she was to try some kind of illegal abortion...”
Abortion “takes away a human” life, not a right. The woman can still CHOOSE to have an abortion even if it is illegal, just as a criminal can CHOOSE to murder even if it is illegal. And you’re argument concerning back alley abortion is twisted as I see it. Think about this: If it is dangerous or deadly for a woman to have a back alley abortion, it is also deadly for bankrobbers to rob banks as they can be shot by police, etc. Since you think abortion should be legal because of the danger ,then can I assume you think bank robbery should be legal too? I mean the criminals still rob banks even if it is illegal and they sometimes DIE doing it. Maybe we should not “take away their human rights.”
I’m sorry if I come of critical, but you are being very inconsistent in your judgements. You say one thing (abortion is same as murder), but then you contradict yourself (murder should be illegal but not abortion). That is a complete contradiction. I’m sorry.
Answer this question if you would:
Should a mother have a “choice” to kill her 2-yr old b/c of hardships? I mean should it be LEGAL?
You see what I’m getting at. You are allowing an even more defenseless and innocent child die legally than a 2-yr old toddler. That is your stance, even if you don’t see it.
Anyway, get some rest (you said you were tired). And thanks for responding!